TroyToy ([info]troyworks) wrote,
@ 2005-10-03 02:43:00
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Geek: Space consolidation
So the attempt to get rid of stuff continues. A bit more stuff made it onto ebay, for the first time, I'm getting non obvious tedius questions that would take 20min to answer (e.g. costs to ship to Hong Kong, Philliipines) in the end it's highly likely someone local will outbid them, so I"m reluctant to spend the time to find out as all these are one time sales, rather than a storefront. Ebay is a great example of setting the boundaries of onus.

Part of my project is getting rid of all CD's, VHS, and books I'm unlikely to read/need. Some are like my college textbooks. I kept them cause they each cost $150, now I wonder if I was going to relearn the material if there wouldn't be better online material, or software to do the same thing. I know from memory many of the examples in the book's answers in the back were either incorrect or left no explaination.

From practicing throwing CD's I no longer need into the trash with a high degree of accuracy from across the room, I'd make a great ninja, or perhaps I should start a office sport, mini-frisbee-golf using CD's. Some are games, like the old old Descent and MDK2, and Magic Carpet. Most of which play so blindingly fast on a modern PC to be unplayable, I can only hope they eventually make an emulator to slow them down! Though I rarely play video games these days, I'm reluctant to give them up. Two of them are audio: www.songmania.com (average guitar rock/folk, dylan and beatles influenced) and www.vyktoria.com like new age/ethereal plus guitar work. Neither were in the freedb database. The first one didn't make the "Do I like this CD enough to type in all the labels?" cut, the second one did.

LOTR Questions: Wizards and ringwraiths
Watching LOTR in the background, haven't watched it in awhile, and I've seen it many times, so all the inconsistencies are starting to pop up. I haven't read (or rather couldn't get into the books, despite trying), can somebody explain to me are the wizards human or not? Gandalfs fear of succombing to the ring indicates yes, but their immoratility and fighting style indicates no.

Secondly, how many of the ringwraiths are have supposed to follow Arwen (all 9?) the shots vary.

I also don't get if they are essentially immortal and dead, how one human could fight them off at weathertop, or outrun undead horses?

If Gandalf leaves after capture by Sauron on an eagle, how does he get his staff back? If Sauron has the power over the weather, why doesn't he attempt to kill gandalf then?

This level of questions, is why not being entertained is dangerous, and why some sort of entertainment is a requirement while driving to take up mental cycles wondering why the traffic sucks, and not while working.

Reading

Also I enjoyed reading this "The Planning Illusion" about the impossibility to top-down, centrally or before time, plan things efficently. This is the benefit of hindsight, e.g. Katrina, Iraq should have be better planned for, and this is the responsibility of the government, and we need a commission on this, and division on that, and ... why government/taxes rarely shrinks. What I also like about this, it the ability to mitigate crisis damage is based on the ability to improvise, in small groups. Which is bolstered by technology, which is one of the reasons why elite troops can be so effective in small groups against other larger groups.

This was also an interesting read on Thinkers versus Feelers in our society. It occured to me that Feelers tend to protect and unify the current tribe/society (for obvious reasons), regardless of that actual costs or practicality involved (social inertia keeping the status quo?). While I've been aware that thinking content and emotional content are separate channels of information that people process (e.g. it's not what you say it's how you say it), it never really occured to me that people will disregard one channel for fragments of the other. For example at work I noticed that people react differently to others in the break room, some people talking are smiling, even though semantically given a two talkers will talk about similar things, the emotional responses gotten will be different seemingly largly based on how much they smile. Sometimes listening I realize some people aren't talking about anything coherent, but they are both laughing and smiling to the point I think one could talk about *anything* and just say it in a particular way to keep the vibe up. Unfortunately I can't genuninely smile that much.

Anyway, Here's how I picture they might process a sentence visually:

"If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down....but that would an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do."
I imagine most people who are strong feelers past the abort word (possibly the sentence) go into a blind/deaf zone and start with defense responses, filling that thinking/feeling channel with their own content (internal dialog) regardless of the overall content/message being delivered. To the point I bet one could test them and they wouldn't even hear the rest of the sentence. I wonder if a less dispassionate wording on the part of the speaker could overcome this, I know for sure getting a person into a playful mode would get past the defensive response.

Similarly the article points out that feelers are responsible for 'self-esteem' programs in our schools. Which had me wondering if esteem='your never wrong',and if left unchecked would resulting semi socialisitic, top down mediated state of mediocrity avoiding reality, rather than the decentralized figuring out of a pecking order with some winners and some losers, which ties in with the first articles points.



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[info]fub
2005-10-03 11:01 am UTC (link)
are the wizards human or not? Gandalfs fear of succombing to the ring indicates yes, but their immoratility and fighting style indicates no.
The wizards are, basically, demi-gods or 'angels'. The wizards were sent by the Valar (the gods of Middle-Earth) to Set Thinsg Right. Sauron's one too, as is the Balrog.
The fact that Sauron is depending on the One Ring to gain absolute power shows that even demigods can be dependant/under the influence of artifacts.

Secondly, how many of the ringwraiths are have supposed to follow Arwen (all 9?) the shots vary.
Not all of them -- not every ringwraith was searching around the Shire. I seem to recall five, but I don't have the books with me to verify.

I also don't get if they are essentially immortal and dead, how one human could fight them off at weathertop, or outrun undead horses?
They aren't 'dead', but more 'undead'. Their material shells are mere husks, but in that shady 'otherworld' (which is depicted rather nicely in the movies in the Weathertop scenes) they still bear the regal visages of the kings they once were. The trick of the Morgul dagger is to drag Frodo deeper into the shadow world, so that they can overpower him more easily.
Humans can defeat them by disposing of their physical beings -- though not permanently, because their 'souls' are trapped in the shadow world -- bound by the One Ring.
The horses they ride are not undead, but specially trained. Horses oozing icky stuff is an invention of Peter Jackson.

If Gandalf leaves after capture by Sauron on an eagle, how does he get his staff back? If Sauron has the power over the weather, why doesn't he attempt to kill gandalf then?
Gandalf was captured by Saruman the White (another wizard), and not Sauron. I think Sauron would have killed Gandalf if he had the chance.
I don't know how Gandalf regained his staff.
Gandalf escaped Orthanc unbeknownst to Saruman (who must have been otherwise occupied with breeding the Uruk-Hai or something like that).

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[info]steuard
2005-10-04 10:06 pm UTC (link)
A couple of further comments and/or minor nitpicks. :)

First, one further note on the wizards is that while they were by nature immortal spirits, they had voluntarily taken on "fragile" physical bodies for their mission to Middle-earth. So bodily death would mean the end of their ability to influence events, even if their spirit did in some sense survive. (And for the record, Gandalf actually died after fighting and defeating the Balrog in Moria. Tolkien explained in a letter that the "God" of Middle-earth intervened specifically to send him back as Gandalf the White.)

Next, all of the Ringwraiths were in fact searching for Frodo. But in the books, Gandalf had drawn four of them away at the time of the attack on Weathertop. The other five pursued Frodo along the road to Rivendell, and the missing four reappeared right at the ford of the river, almost but not quite in time to cut off his escape. I think something similar happened in the movie: it was five pursuers at first, and then at some point all nine are there.

[info]fub covered the dead/undead question pretty well, I think. In any case, the Ringwraiths and their horses are not supernaturally good fighters or runners (although they seem to be at least as good as normal human fighters, which makes Aragorn's single-handed defeat of all of them in the movie version pretty silly). But nobody has a really good explanation for why the Ringwraiths didn't just press the attack on Weathertop, kill everyone, and take the Ring. Or at least, there's substantial disagreement on the topic. See my FAQ on this issue for some of that discussion.

As for Gandalf's escape from Saruman, it depends on which story you're thinking about. In the movie, if you watch carefully you'll see that his staff looks different after his escape. In the book, I don't know that there's any indication that he lost his staff at all (though I don't know that there's evidence that he didn't, either). After his battle with the Balrog, Gandalf certainly ends up with a new staff in both the book and the film; we never hear anything about where these come from.

And finally, in the book, there's absolutely no indication that the wizard Saruman has any control over the weather (or that he notices that Gandalf has escaped until at least a few minutes after the fact). It's left unclear whether the storm in the mountains was deliberately caused by Sauron, deliberately caused somehow by the hostile mountain itself, or just bad luck.

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[info]fub
2005-10-05 07:16 am UTC (link)
But nobody has a really good explanation for why the Ringwraiths didn't just press the attack on Weathertop, kill everyone, and take the Ring.
Were the Ringwraiths not once the Kings of Men? Is not Aragorn a direct decendant of one of them? More specifically, is he not a decendant of the Witch-King (who, as I seem to recall, ruled Arnor, the Northern Kingdom)?
I might be mistaken here, though...

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[info]steuard
2005-10-05 03:21 pm UTC (link)
We don't know much about the origins of any of the Nazgul. I seem to recall a statement somewhere that three of them may have been Black Numenorians (the likely implication being that they were from the lands south of Gondor), and we do know that the second in command, Khamul, was called "The Black Easterling". But we know nothing about the Witch King's origin specifically. We do know that he founded the kingdom of Angmar northeast of Arnor, and that his attacks from there were much of the cause of Arnor's decay. But I'm pretty sure that Aragorn's royal ancestors are all "accounted for" all the way back to the First Age: no Witch Kings there. :)

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[info]fub
2005-10-05 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Note to self: Don't confuse Angmar and Arnor.

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[info]irrationalrobot
2005-10-03 04:39 pm UTC (link)
LOTR: Someone (perhaps fub) will have a better grip on the Middle Earth mythology than I, but my understanding:

are the wizards human or not?
No. I'm with fub about the three of them (Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast) being sent by the Valar, but my understanding is that they were sent to control Sauron, and are not the same type of being.

Saruman has the power over the weather, why doesn't he attempt to kill gandalf then?
Even if Saruman was aware (see fub), the weather stuff appeared to take a lot of effort. In the novels, I'm not sure Saruman had anything to do with the big storms that blocked the path through the mountain.

Thinking vs Feeling:
I agree that this is an important distinction, but in the case you use, I think things are a bit more complicated. Without reprinting the whole context, here is my recap of the conversation in question:

Bill Bennet: abortion is evil.
Some Guy: Stephen Levitt in Freakonomics says that abortion is responsible for the low crime rate.
BB: I don't agree.
SG: Neither do I.
BB: Just because it lowers the crime rate doesn't make it right. I mean, aborting every black baby would lower the crime rate, and that would be unacceptable.

Note what is tricky here- he says that he disagrees with Levitt about abortion contributing to the low crime rate, but says that aborting every black baby would work. It is a fine distinction, and I'll give him a half-pass for just talking off of the cuff, but if he really meant what he said then he thinks that race (rather than upbringing, economics, or something else) determines criminality.

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[info]dogofjustice
2005-10-03 07:37 pm UTC (link)
It is a fine distinction, and I'll give him a half-pass for just talking off of the cuff, but if he really meant what he said then he thinks that race (rather than upbringing, economics, or something else) determines criminality.

Untrue. I'm quite sure if you asked him if aborting future black Harvard graduates would reduce the crime rate, he'd find the proposition ridiculous.

Race is statistically correlated with upbringing and socioeconomic status. Bennett says nothing about whether race, or upbringing, or socioeconomic status, or some other factor is actually responsible for the higher rate; he simply refers to what the statistics are (and implicitly to the fact that they aren't changing fast enough to plausibly reach equality within 15-30 years).

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[info]irrationalrobot
2005-10-03 08:11 pm UTC (link)
Race is statistically correlated with upbringing and socioeconomic status.

That it is. The argument from the Freakonomics guys is that people seeking abortions are disproportionately single women and poor folks (IIRC), which is part of the reason for drawing the strong correlation between legalized abortion and declining crime rates. Bennett expressly says that he doesn't accept the argument from Freakonomics, but that he is sure that aborting all black babies would lower the crime rate.

If he doesn't buy the Freakonomics argument, then how does he buy the black babies one?

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[info]dogofjustice
2005-10-03 08:37 pm UTC (link)
In a subsequent response to criticism of his remarks, Bennett referred to an online debate about the abortion-reduces-crime hypothesis between Levitt and Steve Sailer, essentially stating that he agrees with Sailer's position.

Sailer's attack on Levitt's hypothesis is two-pronged:
- The initial cohort of post-legalization babies was actually responsible for a much higher crime rate than usual, thanks to crack; thus, abortion is at best secondary as far as crime-affecting variables go. (Of course, Levitt never ruled out other variables being important. Discovering a secondary causative variable is still a major feat.)
- Illegitimacy actually shot up after abortion legalization. This data point seems to be inconsistent with the "legal abortion -> fewer unwanted babies -> less crime" explanation.

As for what might be responsible for the reduction in crime over the last 10 years, higher incarceration rates is a legitimate alternative hypothesis.

In any case, these objections to the Freakonomics argument do not rest on racist assumptions.

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[info]ex_greymaide85
2005-10-03 08:39 pm UTC (link)
As a sometime objectivist, I disagree with the idea that the "self-esteem" movement was started by feelers.

I can't tell you how many times I've thought "Jesus, if people would just have faith in their own ideas and skills this world would be a much better place."

Maybe guys don't get this so much, but there is a lot of pressure for girls to downplay thier talents and gifts so they are not set apart from others, because then they are a snob and think they are better than other people and that is BAD. So what you end up with is that one-downmanship that women do that drive women like me crazy.

My hope is that the self-esteem training will teach kids to say "I'm good at math, and that is awesome." Or even "I'm not good at school, but I have perfect pitch and that is something I can be proud of myself for."

From a thinkers perspective, if everyone embraced his or her talents with pride, we would go much further as a society.

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[info]troyworks
2005-10-03 09:00 pm UTC (link)
>From a thinkers perspective, if everyone embraced his or her talents with pride, we would go much further as a society.

I totally agree, but the problem is we don't because we don't like pride, as its to close to arrogance it creates a status imbalance, between those who can and those who can't, which makes those who can't feel bad, the way school is structured these tests are inevitable, since we require a certain minimum of education, there are some kids who aren't good at most things, and some who are good at everything. The structuring of self-esteem is to make sure that they both remain happy while being in the same class/school.

Any downplaying of talent generally pisses me off, part of the problem I saw in tutoring is my female students needed differetn style instruction than the guys, but on the other hand if people aren't that talented in my eyes I will say as such. I do like to make sure it's viable. E.g. I have several artistic people in my circle. Some are starving artist types, some aren't. I'd rather people not be starving.

Of course this reflects my opinion and I don't always know.

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[info]steuard
2005-10-05 05:21 am UTC (link)
Regarding the nature of the wizards and of Sauron (and the Balrog), [info]fub is right that they're all the same basic class of being: they are "Maiar", "angelic" beings like the Valar but with less native power. Sauron was one of the most powerful of all the many Maiar; the wizards were probably pretty much average in "power". But the wizards' mission wasn't power vs. power anyway: their job was to help the people of Middle-earth resist Sauron themselves.

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[info]steuard
2005-10-05 05:25 am UTC (link)
Grr. That was supposed to be a reply to [info]irrationalrobot, but my browser hiccupped during the posting process. Sorry 'bout that.

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[info]gustavolacerda
2005-10-09 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Interesting.

This seems to be saying that "F"s don't interpreting things literally, that they're more interested in motives than in the truth. I'd like to see studies.



For example at work I noticed that people react differently to others in the break room, some people talking are smiling, even though semantically given a two talkers will talk about similar things, the emotional responses gotten will be different seemingly largly based on how much they smile. Sometimes listening I realize some people aren't talking about anything coherent, but they are both laughing and smiling to the point I think one could talk about *anything* and just say it in a particular way to keep the vibe up.

That's why it's so important to just be comfortable with oneself. You don't need to connect intellectually at all... heck, you can make a reasonable connection without any verbal communication at all, by just making the right noises and faces.

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Thinkers vs Feelers
[info]gustavolacerda
2005-10-13 09:22 am UTC (link)
Last year I went to a transhumanist gathering in England, and I provoked a strange incident. One of the attendants was a transhumanist libertarian, with a PhD in history, quite a charismatic character... and we started talking about WW2, what would the world be like if Hitler had won, etc.

At some point, I asked him why Hitler lost, and he said: "he spread himself too thin, going to Africa, etc". I replied "that doesn't sound like a very rational move!"

-"Hitler rational???"
"You're talking about a man who murdered millions of innocent people!!!!"
" etc. etc"
I insisted coolly, but he became red with anger, and was lecturing me incessantly.

At the end, he was just peeved that I had used the word "rational" to describe Hitler, while I thought it was a perfectly appropriate, morally-neutral word to describe strategic behavior. Everyone else, thought that I was reasonable, and that he wasn't.

It was weird because I didn't expect him to act like such a Feeler. But I imagine that maybe even I could behave that way in the right (i.e. wrong) circumstances.

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Re: Thinkers vs Feelers
[info]troyworks
2005-10-13 03:52 pm UTC (link)
Yes, this is something I've only been aware of recently. I typically assume that people into libertarianism and transhumanism are thinkers. While it's typically true, there are many who are markedly different in how they approach it and there are some which come from completely different motivations, e.g anarchistic-libertarian and unhappy with gender stereotypes transhumans.

Peoples temperment (which is more complex than) is how they prefer to operate in the world, not their particular intelligence when applied to a certain field determines their grasp (history, economics) or their interests. There are ISFP's with genius intelligence, who might find the more complexity system and possibilities appealing/challenging.

Also if you violate anybody's core values/beliefs typically they get defensive, and once defensive they will do/say irrational things to protect that even if they are wrong. e.g. 'Terrorists are brave' upsets people, even though if the players were neutral (e.g a personA goes to a hostile foreign country, with the high probability of losing his life for the goal of the greater good...)

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Re: Thinkers vs Feelers
[info]gustavolacerda
2005-10-16 09:01 am UTC (link)
Did you get an email from me a week or two ago? If you don't accept it soon, I'll offer it to others.

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Re: Thinkers vs Feelers
[info]troyworks
2005-10-16 09:42 am UTC (link)
thanks, as cool as it sounds please offer it to others, i've been swamped of late.

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